Talk:Golden Team

Anti-Soviet propaganda

It was also considered emblematic of Hungarian national success and the most important subject of national pride in the worst period of oppression by the communist regime imposed on Hungary by the Soviet Union that occupied the country in 1945. In this period any "nationalistic" or even patriotic expression was strongly disapproved since these were considered being against both the internationalist ideal of the communist government as well as the expected behavior of the Hungarian nation defeated in World War II. In this atmosphere, international sport events were the only tolerated fields of expression of national pride.

Nobody forced Hungarians to support Nazi Germany, which killed 20m of Russian and Soviet people. Nowadays nationalism is pushed everywhere from USA and Hungary to Russia, everyone becomes obsessed with "national pride". But this brings nothing good to this world, only increasing the chances that the new major war could be started and an exhausting arms race. Karl Marx was very correct that internationalism is better than nationalism. QuestPC (talk) 16:18, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Some tips

For the Mighty Magyars.jpg it would be nice to have a from left to right identifications of the persons in the picture. In the matches table a small revision of the flags is needed. For era-appropriate Hungarian flags see Hungarian National Tennis Championships. Lajbi ^{Holla @ me • CP} 18:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Article receiving vandalism, editorial arbitration is needed

Over the course of a few weeks, this article has been vandalized, its contents reduced 90% by outside editors, namely Cooptuk. Outside Wikipedia arbitration is needed to preserve the integrity and contents of this article. Verifiable references will be furnished. I appeal to Wikipedia managers to pay close attention and monitor activities on this article.

Yes please - I would like the editors to review my edits and to make a call on whether it is "vandalism" or just judicious editing to remove verbosity, pomposity and peacock phrasing. GrandMariner seems to be regarding this page as his own personal property, in that he alone is allowed to make revisions. I will request that the page be protected until this is resolved. Coopuk (talk) 10:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I have requested that this page be semi-protected until this issue is resolved. Coopuk (talk) 10:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that one or both of you make a request for comments -- you can find information on how to do this at WP:RFC; let me know if you have trouble with the instructions. However, I think it would be more productive if before you do that you discuss here why you each think the article should be so different. It's always best if editors involved in an article can resolve the disagreements through discussion, since usually they are the most knowledgeable about the issues. Mike Christie (talk – library) 15:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It seems that about 70% of the total article content was wiped out in a single edit. I read back this talk page but found no discussion or consensus for wiping out anything close to 70% of the article. I can't really imagine any case where this is appropriate other than the mass deleted/blanked content was straight up vandalism. Hobartimus (talk) 15:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to respond. I originally started editing this article for two reasons; one, I have an interest in football, and two, it was originally flagged by Wikipedia as being non-neutral and being too long. My edits removed a great deal of what I considered to be verbosity and non-neutral comments, and also I removed "story-like" paragraphs for key matches, where I thought an individual page reference should be made (e.g. the Hungary v England 1954 page). Unfortunately this seemed to offend GrandMariner, who accused me of vandalism and rolled back my changes to his original document. I suppose I'm looking for a third party to compare and let me know if I have indeed been too aggressive with my editing. I have put in a Request For Comment entry. Coopuk (talk) 15:26, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Having reviewed the previous (120K!) version of the page, I agree with Coopuk that a full rewrite was necessary. The original article was excessively verbose, making use of poetic and flowery vocabulary far removed from the expected encyclopaedic voice. The vast majority was also unsourced and editorial in nature. Examples:

• "The team's brilliance from the spring"
• "a strikingly heroic and historically consequential event commonly viewed as having rent the first major blow against the shining panoply of the monolithic communist world order"
• "One of the most technically superb teams in history"
• "the definitive sporting force from the Eastern Bloc of the era"
• "talismanic captain Ferenc Puskás"
• "prodigal goalscorer Sándor Kocsis"
• "swift and sprightly winger Zoltán Czibor"
• "midfield choreographer József Bozsik who set the tenor for the tactical nous going forward"
• "a record that lifts the side into the realm of legend"
• "their essential hard currency was cogent offensive bandwidth within a 50 game period"
• "uneven refereeing due to the eco-political zeitgeist of the times"

And these just in the lede section! It continues through the entire article, with phrases like "intellectual firepower", a player referred to as a "deep-lying free trading entrepreneur", something about "event horizons" and barely intelligible sentences like "a total cohesive solution with contours of players equally sharing in the ball's propagation". I'd hazard a guess that a good 50% at least of the prior article content is language of this nature.

I certainly intend no offense to the author of this prior version, but the majority of it reads like a non-fiction storybook about the team rather than an encyclopaedia article. Care should be taken to make sure that relevant information from the prior version is included in the new version, but I would say that the new version is a marked improvement and is far more fitting of an encyclopaedia article than the old version. This is most certainly not a case of vandalism. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Just to add, the entire section (in the prior version) on the two goalscorers is incredibly excessive; its size alone is bigger than some full biographies I've seen. That information should be split and put in biographical articles about the relevant players, it's far too long to be in the more general article on the team itself. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I note with sadness that my previous editorial work has been removed and the previous wording - similiar in style to that of GrandMariner - re-instated. I have referred this for moderation. Again.coopuk (talk)

Rename to Magical Magyars?

I would like the article renamed to the Magical Magyars - the current title of "golden team" can be used to refer to any "golden team" of any country, or of any era.

Thoughts/comments? Coopuk (talk) 17:39, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Formal template to rename to Magical Magyars

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 05:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

---

Golden Team → Magical Magyars — The current title could apply to any "golden team" of any sport, of any era. However, the title Magical Magyars is generally recognised as referring specifically to the subject of the article.--Coopuk (talk) 17:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment a disambiguation page would then also need ot be built. 65.95.15.144 (talk) 04:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support - Logic applied makes sense to me..All the others are specific ..like Romanian Golden Team. On a side note should Hungary national football team#The Golden Team (aka The Magical Magyars) be linked to here??Moxy (talk) 07:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support - Per WP:TITLE - "Titles are expected to use names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously". The current title is too vague. (Iaaasi (talk) 08:49, 7 March 2011 (UTC))
• Comment re.the suggestion to link Hungary National Football Team here - I think a link within the Hungary National Football Team article to this article would be useful. Assuming the move is approved I will add a link afterwards. Coopuk (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Golden Team. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:11, 17 April 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:11, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

---

Magical Magyars → Golden Team —

Previous request was not really explained in it's reasons, and there was no time given for proper discussion. The article had the previous title for many years and with good reason, it is the name that this team is known under. There was no evidence provided that the alternative name is widely used or even recognized these days. We can see the weak point of the previous request in this sentence: "The current title could apply"... Well it could apply but it doesn't. The primary and most recognized meaning of Golden Team this is exactly this. Once you there is a legitimate 'golden team' that's mentioned as such in most of the sources it is possible to move that Golden Team to the golden team title. Hobartimus (talk) 08:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: The normal time was given for discussion. There was a clear consensus to move. Andrewa (talk) 11:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Support: There was a notable Hungarian soccer team, called Golden Team.[1] Golden Team, not Magical Magyars. I think we have to reassess their previous decision about that.Fakirbakir (talk) 19:43, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Support There was an allegation that the team is most known as "Magical Magyars", this would mean that most people who come to Wikipedia put that term into the search box, and end up at the Golden Team article via the redirect. We can fortunately assess, how many people used the Magical Magyars redirect in the past here, which is close to nobody. Let's see how many people have used it prior to the renaming January February March prior to 14th when the article was moved. Compare these to the Golden Team article [2] [3]. The conclusion is that currently team is best known as Golden Team, and the extremely small number of people who actually know it as Magical Magyars can be still redirected using the old redirect. So the original name "Golden Team" which is the name of the article for about 5-6 years should be preserved. Hobartimus (talk) 12:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Counter-proposal: Disagree with the suggestion to rename to Golden Team - this team is most frequently referred to as the "Magical Magyars", with "The Golden Team" very much a secondary reference. Purely as an exercise, go to Google and type in "Golden Team", and then by way of comparison type in "Magical Magyars". Which search returns the most references to this team? This I believe is a fair indication of how the team is most commonly referred to. I recommend we retain the name "Magical Magyars" but have a re-direct page from "The Golden Team" Coopuk (talk) 18:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

There is already a redirect from Golden Team, the original name to this article. As the above evidence shows close to nobody looking for this article under Magical Magyars. And even if someone does he can use the redirect of Magical Magyars to Golden Team. Golden Team is the primary topic of the article. Primary topic is the topic that most people are interested in and read. Do you have ANY evidence that there is any other primary topic for "Golden Team" than this article? (Primary topic is the article most people read under a given name, in this case it would be an article with more than 3-4000 views per month) Hobartimus (talk) 18:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point and argument, and appreciate that the viewing stats at this moment indicate that the most common search term on Wikipedia are for "Golden Team". However - I re-iterate my argument, which no-one has answered - that the general number of articles outside of Wikipedia refer to this team as the Magical Magyars. This can be validated by using any search engine. My recommendation is that the article should therefore reflect the term by which this team is most commonly known. There is a Wikipedia entry for a Romanian Golden Team - so perhaps this article should be renamed Hungarian Golden Team to avoid confusion... or perhaps retain the Magical Magyars title? Obviously, in the spirit of Wikipedia, I am happy to be governed by the general consensus :) Coopuk (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Placeholder for my reply for later. Hobartimus (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

It might be helpful to provide some links to the actual Google searches you are using, as it's not trivial to make the search valid. Finding the Romanian Golden Team article is easier. There's also an interesting section at ELF Cup#Golden Team. Andrewa (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I have reviewed some viewership data on the number of people searching for and viewing Romanian Golden Team [4] [5][6] [7] During the same months the title Golden Team got the following [8] [9][10][11] number of views. Golden Team meaning this article is clearly the primary topic for "Golden Team". But we don't have to invent anything the same issue comes up with many places over wikipedia. Let's see how it is handled, let's see an example : Germany has a thousand meanings, when someone types in "Germany" to the search box, they find this at the top of the article: "This article is about the country. For other uses of terms redirecting here, see Germany (disambiguation) and Deutschland (disambiguation)." Of course the cases are not entirely similar, as there are not that many teams who are in a similar situation here. The romanian one for example seems to be not an actual competitive sports team but some sort of festival performance group, who for example did a "presentment at Callatis Festival in July 2007". Hobartimus (talk) 20:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

As an example search, simply go to Google (www.google.com), and firstly type in the words Golden Team. Note how many of the returned links are associated with this team. Now repeat the same exercise, but use the word Magical Magyars. You should see a significant difference in the number of links, indicating that the term Magical Magyars is in common usage for this team. This exercise can be repeated with search engines such as Yahoo, Bing and Ask Jeeves. The question I am asking is whether the title of the article should be something that is not specific to the subject - "Golden Team", or something which is very specific to it (Magical Magyars) Coopuk (talk) 21:03, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

OK I went to www.google.com and I ask the admin to move back the article to the original title per the results. The results are as follows:

Other than counting results by hand as proposed above I did the following test: type "Golden Team" +Hungary ,results in :"About 47,300 results (0.06 seconds)" while typing in "Magical Magyars" +Hungary , About 12,700 results (0.07 seconds). Please redo the test see what results do you get. Hobartimus (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll have to let another admin close this RM, as I'm going to "involve" myself by expressing an opinion below. And I think that's the best process... You've raised a new RM, and it should be asssessed and closed in due course.

I get 49,800 ghits [12] vs 13,400 [13] which IMO is at best borderline significant. It shows that both terms are common, but it's not quite a big enough ratio for any confidence as to which is most common. Andrewa (talk) 00:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

If you are suggesting that the article should be renamed Hungarian Golden Team as per your search then I am content... but just Golden Team is not enough, as that could reference many things and teams not related to Hungary. Coopuk (talk) 22:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support move to Hungarian Golden Team. This seems a good way forward to me, and is consistent with the treatment of Romanian Golden Team. As we now have three Golden Teams in all (and I suspect we will find more in time) we should also set up a DAB, probably best at Golden Team (disambiguation) for now but if there's consensus that there's no primary topic for Golden Team the DAB would go instead to Golden Team. Andrewa (talk) 00:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support move to Hungarian Golden Team. This seems a good way forward to me, and is consistent with the treatment of Romanian Golden Team. Coopuk (talk) 08:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support move to Hungarian Golden Team. The name "Golden Team" is just too ambiguous, particularly if there is also an article for the Romanian Golden Team. The Golden Team page itself should be a disambiguation page with Hungarian Golden Team as the first page in the list. —Tim Pierce (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of canvassing, I think a heads-up to Hobartimus and Fakirbakir is in order, to seek an explicit view from them on this counterproposal. Andrewa (talk) 20:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Done. Andrewa (talk) 02:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support move to Golden Team as per evidence above. The name is not used extensively for any other team, so I don't see any confusion here. Squash Racket (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support Still supporting the "Golden Team" as it was the status quo ante for many years. I prefer "Golden Team" To Hungarian Golden Team and I prefer Hungarian Golden Team to Magical Magyars. Evidence of how widely each one is used was provided above by a few people. I have to note it again, since I was asked about my opinion again. In truth the Romanian Golden Team analogy seems bogus to me, maybe that article should be renamed to Callatis Festival Group Or Marius Urzica performance group as they are not even a sports team and their activity is to perform shows at different festivals. So they shouldn't even be compared as they are not a sports team, that group entered no competitions no tournaments. Hobartimus (talk) 19:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support "Hungarian Golden Team". On Google books, Hungary "Golden Team" -Wikipedia gets more than twice as many hits as Hungary "Magical Magyars" -Wikipedia Kauffner (talk) 09:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support move to Golden Team or Hungarian Golden Team. This "Magical Magyars" thing doesn't really appeal to me mostly due to the fact that I've never heard of it before. Golden Team on the other hand almost instantly reminds me of the legendary football team of the 1950s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoolKoon (talk • contribs) 13:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose BOTH: The whole dispute seems ridiculous to me, it is probably true, that Hungarians use term Aranycsapat more frequently than Magical Magyars and it's fine if that is used on the hungarian wikipedia. However, as reliable sources prove, the term Golden Team is never used in English, except as a translation of the Hungarian term. [14], [15], [16]. That Hungarian users search more for the literal translation of the term they know the team under provides no case for the move, as Golden Team it is not used in English and thus should NOT be used for an article title as per WP:TITLE. Wladthemlat (talk) 11:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

You didn't bother to check at least Google Books with its 198 hits for the search term "Golden Team" Hungary? Squash Racket (talk) 14:02, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

As a matter of fact I did, did you bother to exclude the books written by Hungarian authors and all those where it is used in quotation marks (i.e. only approximation of the Hungarian term, often even without initials capitalization)? Also, please note that the number of results on the first page is only an approximation, go to the last page and see that there are no more than 70. Wladthemlat (talk) 19:37, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice of you to admit you haven't even searched the term. Squash Racket (talk) 11:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Now you're making no sense, where did I admit that? The point that even FIFA webpage referes to this specific team (which cannot be guaranteed in the google books search results) as Magical Magyars stays. And native speakers in the discussion have supported the theses that that's the name the team is known under in the English speaking world. Don't see why we should change the status quo when the difference in references is microscopic and there are other arguments supporting no-move option. Wladthemlat (talk) 11:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The difference in references is three times more English hits for "Golden Team" than "Magical Magyars". It's funny how you ignore all the American/British references using the term "Golden Team". I mean, now that you at least took a look at the Google Books hits. Squash Racket (talk) 11:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Really? Three times? [17] vs [18]. And the first hit count includes authors like Ignác Romsics, Éva Molnár, Péter Zilahy, Réka Benczes so please adjust for that.

It's three times if you do the search properly: [19] and [20]. It also includes Peter G. Glockner, Richard S. Esbenshade, Charles Hebbert, Norm Longley, Dan Richardson, Bill Murray, William J. Murray, Stephen Sisa, Andrew Handler and Scott Murray (we're still on the first page). Squash Racket (talk) 11:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Your first page also includes two "books" which list wikipedia as their source, two which list it in lower caps and in quotation marks and one which refers to it explicitly only as translation of the Hungarian Aranycsapat. How reliable is the rest then?.Wladthemlat (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The very first hit for the other search term is the Wikipedia page itself, while another page lists half of the term in lower caps and I won't start checking the reliability of each hit as I know that no matter how we count it, more works written in English refer to it as Golden Team than as Magical Magyars. That's it. Squash Racket (talk) 12:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Can I point out that the issue is that "Golden Team" can refer to many other teams, not just this one. This fact is backed up by searches for "Golden Team" on Google Books that refer to many other teams. "Magical Maygars" only refers to this team. I really don't mind what the article is called, other than "Golden Team" which is too generic (outside of Hungary at least). If we must have "Golden Team" in it, then "Hungarian Golden Team" works for me - but I think "Magical Magyars" is better for the casual browser. Coopuk (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

"Golden Team" with high caps generally refers to this team, "golden team" with low caps might refer to other teams. Squash Racket (talk) 09:08, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

NOTE to closing admin At this point it seems like a tie between Golden Team and Hungarian Golden Team. Golden Team would be the best as there's no other notable team with this name. The Romanian Golden Team is barely notable, a link to Golden Team (disambiguation) would safely cover it.
If the latter seems to be the winner though, please move it to Golden Team (Hungary) instead of "Hungarian Golden Team" as the team is simply referred to as "Golden Team" in English. Squash Racket (talk) 12:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I Call for Continued Arbitration

To Whom It May Concern:

I began this article in December 2005, and it was 90% completed in February. On January 23 2010, an outside editor Coopuk within a single day's worth of edits managed to reduce 5 years of my work down to a rump distilled uninspired article of his own choosing. 70% of the article was wiped out during a single day of rigorous deletion. The important header was drastically reduced. The section that includes the Elo Rating chart ('International Football's All-time Highest Ratings'} of the team was deleted showcasing the relative significance of the team. The biographical section of two key members of the team, Ferenc Puskas and Sandor Kocsis ('Goalscorers: Puskás and Kocsis') was deleted. The most important key game of this team with England 1953 ('Match of the Century) that had worldwide historic significance and not just for national English football was reduced to a brief paragraph. That was the soul of the article that I spent countless hours of research and writing. The second most important game of the Magyars (the 1954 WC Final) that I spent weeks writing and researching, was significantly reduced. Three charts were completely deleted.

If you read the previous history of this talk page, I have also requested independent review of this article. This was done and the version that is in in existence now was preferred. Most of the editing has been done to remove peacock phrasing (previous discussion on this page covers this), to summarise an extremely verbose article (again addressed earlier in this talk page) and to direct the reader to individual pages for key players and games, such as Puskas, Kocsis, and the 1953 game with England. As always, I am happy to abide by the opinion of independent editoral review. Coopuk (talk) 16:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Outside user Iaaasi tried to have me barred, fabricating a story that I was a suspected sock-puppet of a Hungarian user. I have thus been cleared by an administrator but my old username no longer works as OliverTwist88 and GrandMariner. It is very clear Iaaasi and Coopuk do not want me to have access to the article I wrote 99.95% prior to Coopuk's arrival. In short, I've been trolled. The article has taken on less meaning and significance, and it totally gutted, hence vandalism. Coopuk has apparently taken over complete control of this article and even managed to change the name of the article from "Golden Team" to "Magical Magyars" that has stood for 5 1/2 years.

I want administrators to look at my version of this article located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Magical_Magyars&diff=414741404&oldid=414741005

I need administrator help in restoring the full faith and credit of the article before sheer vandalism wiped out 70-75% of the article. Thank you for your attention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.25.218.135 (talk) 03:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh well. I think you shouldn't mix Coopuk into this. I'm not sure about his intentions, but he might be willing to engage in a discussion and come to an agreement. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case with Iaaasi. In fact I'm tempted to say that his efforts to have you blocked has nothing to do with this article at all. He's simply a disruptive editor who's keen on attacking editors who edit articles related to Hungary or Hungarians. You might've become a victim of this campaign of his. IIRC the Hungarian user Iaaasi was so hung up on was Stubes99 who was confirmed to contribute from Hungary. Your IP however seems to be located in San Diego, CA, so unless it's a proxy address, chances are that you can successfully apply for a request to have your account unblocked. You could tell them that you were (wrongly) accused of being a sockpuppet and tell them to check the IPs you've used for access. Since it's likely for you to have caught up in a crossfire between Iaaasi and some other users (and that Iaaasi has "bended the truth" numerous times), you application has a great chance of success. CoolKoon (talk) 13:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support move to Golden Team as per evidence above. Moreover, I propose restoring an old version prior to the (supposed) malicious activity if it is true (even if it is partially true).Fakirbakir (talk) 10:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

If you read the previous history of this talk page, I have also requested independent review of this article. This was done and the version that is in in existence now was preferred. Most of the editing has been done to remove peacock phrasing (previous discussion on this page covers this), to summarise an extremely verbose article (again addressed earlier in this talk page) and to direct the reader to individual pages for key players and games, such as Puskas, Kocsis, and the 1953 game with England. As always, I am happy to abide by the opinion of independent editoral review. Coopuk (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Coopuk, I can't disagree with you more. You deleted three charts that were neutral off the article. What you refer to as "extremely verbose" are fact-filled factoids, everything I've written were based on facts either from books or Internet articles. Coopuk, you've also written factually incorrect information:

1.) Between 1950 and the 1954 World Cup final match, the team suffered no defeats, recording 42 victories and 7 draws. <-- Incorrect, that record is from 1950 to 1956.

2.) Puskas remained in Hungary until 1958... <-- Incorrect, Puskas did not return to Hungary in 1956 during the heyday of the Hungarian Revolution, he and the team left he country past agreeable Hungarian revolutionary border guards, he first went to Austria, then Italy, he only emigrated to Spain in 1958.

I'm going to get true independent editorial review, and last I heard many editors also voiced their opinion that your massive deletion of content was excessive to say the least. Expect the article to return to its original form soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.25.218.135 (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I stand by my edits and invite independent editorial review of them. This has already been done once - please see the history of this on this talk page. As stated them, my edits were to remove peacock phrasing and verbosity. However, I will be happy to abide by the opinion of the Wikipedia editorial team should they choose to revert back to your version - do you want me to refer this article for review again? With regards to your comments on the article: I am happy to make the corrections you have suggested, albeit in phrasing that is legible :) Coopuk (talk) 21:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I have been following this controversy loosely since January 2010, when OliverTwist88 came to IRC to ask for help with edit warring. I have never made an edit to the article and never commented on it to this point, so I consider myself a reasonably independent observer. The article in its current state is drastically improved from January 2010. Although there is less raw information in it, it is more informative; much of the original rambling detail has been omitted in favor of clear and straightforward prose. The article could still do with more historical context for explaining the team's long-term impact and legacy on the game, but it is in much better shape than it was. The original text should not be restored. —Tim Pierce (talk) 16:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Note for 24.25.218.135

I've added a note on WP:ANI about you getting blocked by Iaaasi based on dubious allegations (to say at least). You might want to follow it and see how it develops. Maybe you could add your side of the story too. CoolKoon (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

New proposal

I would not be against the move to Hungarian Golden Team, but my opinion is that the best title is Hungary national football team of the 1950s. It is formal, neutral and encyclopedic. A similar case is the article about the 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team, nicknamed the "Dream Team" (Iaaasi (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC))

The Magical Magyars are the nickname for the team in the English speaking world, it was applied after the 'Match of the Century' with England in 1953. In Hungary they are known as the Aranycsapat literally meaning Golden Team or Gold Squad. The Golden Team designation was applied after they won the 1952 Olympics in football. In Europe, these are the names the team goes by:

German: Goldene Elf Spanish: Equipo de oro eo:Orteamo French: Onze d'or hongrois Italian: Squadra d'oro Hungarian: Aranycsapat Dutch: Magische Magyaren Japanese: マジック・マジャール Polish: Złota jedenastka Portuguese: O Time de Ouro Russian: Золотая команда Serbian: Златних једанаест Finnish: Kultainen joukkue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.25.218.135 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

This is actually a gathering of opinions weather how this article should be titled to see what would other editors think in case of an eventual move request, right Iaaasi? Anyway, what are all the possible options? FkpCascais (talk) 00:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Four variants were circulated till now:

• Hungary national football team of the 1950s - the best one, per arguments above
• Magical Magyars
• Hungarian Golden Team
• Golden Team - the only one I am totally against, because it is too ambiguous ::(Iaaasi (talk) 08:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

Well, I hope you wan´t get me wrong, but I personally think that your proposal (Hungary national football team of the 1950s) is a bit borring, meaning, those guys had something really special going on back than, and they were quite an artists! I think (without checking) that by now we don´t have many articles of teams for some specific period, but certainly one day articles like [Nepal national football team of the 1980s] (just a silly exemple) will apear, and the article about Puskas, Kocsis & co. will look lost inside that tipe of titles. I rather think that this article is an exception, about generation of great footballers that stayed in the history. For me the current name works quite fine. It also contains the national disambiguational factor "Magyar". The Hungarian Golden Team is also good. Just to understand, why you propose moving from the current title? And also, have you guys checked what´s the WP:COMMONAME in English for the team? FkpCascais (talk) 08:31, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Your arguments are highly subjective. These kind of motivation: "this title is boring" or "those guys were artists" are not consistent at all. This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper with magniloquent titles (Iaaasi (talk) 08:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

Well, you are not certainly going to teach me that, and I gave you a response containing 2 parts, a personal one, where yes, I did expressed some subjectivness, and a incisive one, going directly to a WP principle aplied on this questions. You choosed to ignore the principle I pointed out and you got a pseudo-lectural attitude. Please avoid such attitudes on WP. FkpCascais (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

As long as the title clearly defines the team as being Hungarian then I would be happy with either Hungarian Golden Team or Hungary national football team of the 1950s, as both clearly identify this specific team. Both of these suggestions have merit; Hungarian Golden Team clarifies which team we are talking about, as well as retaining the link to the previous Golden Team entry - however, Hungary National football team of the 1950s is more in keeping with a encyclopedia entry, especially if we have references in the lead for Hungarian Golden Team and Magical Magyars. Personally I would favour Hungary national football team of the 1950s, but would be happy with the general consensus as long as we don't revert back to the ambiguous Golden Team. Coopuk (talk) 10:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I've opened a RFM discussion on this proposal (Iaaasi (talk) 11:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

Comparison of current article with revision from the original author

I have seen several postings stating that my edits are vandalism. I would invite all reviewers of this article to consider the current version, and then compare against the version I edited: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Magical_Magyars&diff=414741404&oldid=414741005 - and then consider whether it is vandalism, or judicious editing. In particular, can I ask reviewers to bear the following in mind:

"The ideal Wikipedia article is well-written, balanced, neutral, and encyclopedic, containing comprehensive, notable, verifiable knowledge."

Without wishing to offend the author of the original article, I do not believe it satisfied any of the above criteria. To quote briefly from the original revision that the original author wishes to revert to:

"This proud long reign of invincibility knit to semi-mythology was legendary, embedded into socio-national consciousness and ethos as a redoubt and post to which Englishmen could view with surety and confidence in spite of all forecasts, vicissitudes and the ever-changing times. Gorgeous, wonderful, and victorious English football possessed a feel of unbeatable quality and romantic neo-imperial Victorian inheritance with a direct unbroken connection to the palmiest days of the British Empire."

I will be happy to abide by the decision of independent editorial review on this. Coopuk (talk) 23:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Hungary national football team of the 1950s

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Kotniski (talk) 10:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

---

Magical Magyars → Hungary national football team of the 1950s — * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related moves. Iaaasi (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support This title is formal, neutral and encyclopedic. A similar case is the article about the 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team, nicknamed the "Dream Team" (Iaaasi (talk) 10:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC))
• Oppose The proposed title's not only meaningless, but quite nonsensical as well. Obviously Iaaasi has only started this new proposal because he didn't like/accept the results of the last vote. I don't think this whole proposal serves any other purpose than renaming the article only because Iaaasi "doesn't like" the Golden Team/Hungarian Golden Team/Golden Team of Hungary. CoolKoon (talk) 14:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Why meaningless? Why nonsensical? I don't understand why you use this terms(Iaaasi (talk) 16:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

I on the other hands don't see any logic in your arguments in support of this change. Where have you seen the usage of "Hungary national football team of the 1950s" (which's even grammatically incorrect) in connection with the "Golden Team"? According to your logic we could name the article "11 men from Hungary in the 1950s" or "Hungarian football players from the 1950s" etc. Your proposal just simply makes no sense whatsoever. CoolKoon (talk) 17:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

What is grammatically incorrect here if you don't mind? (Iaaasi (talk) 17:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

The wording of "Hungary". It has to be either "Hungary's" or "Hungarian". CoolKoon (talk) 17:23, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the proposed wording is awkward, but it's consistent with England national football team, Northern Ireland national football team, Italy national football team, etc. —Tim Pierce (talk) 17:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support per Iaaasi's arguments. I think the "Dream Team" is exactly the right model to use here. At the very least the title must have "Hungary" or "Hungarian" in the title. Suggest Hungary national football team (1949-1956), using Ireland national football team (1882–1950) as a precedent. —Tim Pierce (talk) 16:40, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
  • That isn't a precedent. The Ireland national football team has that disambiguator because that was the period in which the Irish Football Association operated a team for the whole of the island of Ireland. In 1950 the island was formally split for football between Northern Ireland (operated by the same IFA) and the Republic of Ireland (operated by the Football Association of Ireland). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose, not sure why, Iaaasi sems to have missed the entire point of my comment donne 2 sections up. I find nothing wrong with the current title. "Magyar" means "Hungarian", so I don´t understand that argument. I clearly finished my comment with a specific question what was the most common name used in English (WP:COMMONAME)? That is what most matters here. FkpCascais (talk) 17:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, your arguments were highly subjective. These kind of motivation: "this title is boring" or "those guys were artists" are not consistent at all. This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper with magniloquent titles (Iaaasi (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

You seem to read only parts of anwers. My argument pointed out to a principle used for this RM. Why dont you concentrate to that part? FkpCascais (talk) 17:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Can't you understand that an encyclopedia is meant to allow for people to search for the knowledge they seek as easily as they can? And what do you think how do you people search for knowledge? They use the terms they're familiar with. The term "Magical Magyars" seems to ring a bell for English-speaking Wikipedians. The term "Golden Team" (or their respective counterparts in other languages) on the other hand is the term used to identify the team of Puskás and co. in the most of the non-English world. From personal experience I know that in Hungarian NOBODY refers to "aranycsapat" in any other way. It's not about tabloids or sensational titles, it's about a commonly used term. CoolKoon (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

If the page is renamed, both Magical Magyars and Golden Team will stay as redirects to either this article or a disambiguation page. This doesn't really have anything to do with whether the article can be found under those terms. —Tim Pierce (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

This once again only confirms that this renaming proposal is completely pointless. I mean that's fine if "Magical Magyars" is a redirect to "Golden Team" (maybe even vice versa), but introducing a third, unused term? What for? CoolKoon (talk) 17:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not an "unused term", it's a short descriptive phrase that is immediately understandable to someone who is unfamiliar with the team. —Tim Pierce (talk) 17:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

How about someone who's familiar with the team? Iaaasi's proposed term would be next to meaningless for him. CoolKoon (talk) 17:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

That said, there doesn't seem to be a really strong consensus on either side of this, and I would personally be fine with something like "Hungarian Golden Team". —Tim Pierce (talk) 17:49, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

What about Hungary National Football Golden team? (Iaaasi (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC))

I don't get it. What's your problem with calling the all-time best Hungarian football team the "Hungarian Golden Team" (well, besides the fact that you don't like it)? You think that a "Golden Team" can only be of Romanian origin or what? CoolKoon (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The comparison with Romanian Golden Team is inappropriate. That is the exact name of the respective group, not a Golden Team from Romania (Iaaasi (talk))

Hungarian Golden Team also sounds like a reasonable proposal, however I beleave that Magical Magyars is still more used. Iaaasi´s last proposition is not used at all. Guys, this is an exceptional aticle about one great football generation, and not a statistical article about the Hungarian NT in the 1950s (there is a big difference Iaaasi). All we can do is, again, check WP:COMMONAME for them in English sources. FkpCascais (talk) 18:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: There are examples on both sides of this argument:
  • Miracle Mets redirects to 1969 New York Mets season.
  • The "Black Sox" season of the Chicago White Sox is formally named 1919 Chicago White Sox season.

On the other hand:

• Philippines Dream Team, the Phillippine basketball team in the 1990 Asian Games.
• The Dream Team (professional wrestling), an American professional wrestling team from 1985-1987.

Moreover, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sports) seems to encourage using the team's formal name in favor of colloquial names like "Dream Team" or "Golden Team". That suggests that this article, Philippines Dream Team and The Dream Team (professional wrestling) should all be renamed. —Tim Pierce (talk) 17:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment Not about this proposed move, as such, but just noting that the pro wrestling tag team is its proper name. Wrestling tag teams and factions are given names like rock bands, so that's at it's correct name already. oknazevad (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Oppose per FkpCascais. Also there is already an active proposal on this page a bit above. Please see the following section For the currently active proposal. Hobartimus (talk) 18:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. In all English-language literature, the team is/was known as the Magical Magyars. BigDom 20:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME in the English-speaking world. In any case, the proposed move name Hungary national football team of the 1950s is inaccurate because the team was broken up after the 1956 revolution. This article is referring to the period between 1949 and 1956, not 1957, 58 or 59. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:20, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose In the New York Mets example, the article is part of a series, one for each Met's season. So a name like "Hungary national football team of the 1950s" implies a similar series: "Hungary national football team of the 1960s," "Hungary national football team of the 1970s", etc. But it does not appear that the creation of such a series is being contemplated. Kauffner (talk) 09:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Some excellent points made here. Based on the comments made, my preference is now to retain the existing name. Coopuk (talk) 11:13, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Golden Team

• Based on Google Books results one thing seems pretty obvious: the most frequent name is Golden Team for this team, not some other name.
• Please show me extensive uses of Golden Team in English for other teams, because "Golden Team" Romania generally brings results OTHER than this group of Romanian gymnasts. Frankly I don't see how this stub would warrant a disambiguation page anyway.
• If we still decide to change the longstanding title for some reason, then I propose Golden Team (Hungary), because in English the team is simply referred to as Golden Team, not as "Hungarian Golden Team".
  

Squash Racket (talk) 10:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I can only speak from personal experience, but when discussing this with my colleagues and fellow football fans in the UK, they all know who the "Magical Magyars" are, but they don't know who the "Golden Team" are. I suspect that this may be a UK thing, and that the rest of Europe knows them as the "Golden Team". Coopuk (talk) 11:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

"Golden Team" is the translation of the Hungarian nickname "Aranycsapat". I guess this name is used especially in Hungary (Iaaasi (talk) 11:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC))

Is Coopuk's personal experience or Iaaasi's personal belief the true basis for deciding an article's title?
Nobody said that "Magical Magyars" is not used. If you have a better (that means more professional) way than Google Books to decide the most appropriate title, then bring it. Until that let's work with what we have.
I hope you too can find enough English, American etc. hits here supporting "Golden Team". More than any other version. Squash Racket (talk) 12:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I note with interest that all checks on the search engine are qualified with +Hungary. Assuming I am someone looking for this on, say, Google, and I enter just "Magical Magyars" or "Golden Team". No qualification for +Hungary in the search. Which one gives the most valid results for this team? Coopuk (talk) 13:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Definitely Golden Team. Adding Hungary only helps to sort it out. Besides, Magical Magyars is not even an exclusive nickname with the "Magyars" tag. You could also argue for Mighty Magyars or Marvellous Magyars based on that. I'm not against moving it to Golden Team (Hungary).

I don't know how much you realize this, or how much this even counts, but Hungarians all over the world know this team exclusively as "Golden Team", not by any other name. Squash Racket (talk) 14:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Appreciate the info about the Hungarians knowing it as the "Golden Team" - ties in with my early comment about the team being known as a "Magical Magyars" in the UK. My concern is that it is not clear for non-Hungarians, hence the debate as to whether the existing title or Hungarian Golden Team would be better. Interestingly enough my search for Golden Team threw up far fewer valid results - there are an awful lot of result that had zero relevance to the team, whilst the "Magical Maygars" search produced results solely relevant to the team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coopuk (talk • contribs) 15:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Here are some links to some searches I did on Google UK:

Magical Magyars: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&xhr=t&q=magical+magyars&cp=12&pf=p&sclient=psy&safe=off&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=magical+magy&pbx=1&fp=60f44b852e72ebb8

Golden Team: http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&q=golden+team&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=60f44b852e72ebb8

I have also checked Google Books and searched for Magical Magyars +football - 166 results, but all related to this team. A search for Magical Magyars +soccer returns 152 results, all related to this team. I also searched for Golden Team +football and got 32,500 results - unfortunately the majority of them did NOT refer to this team, which suggest to me that Golden Team may not be exclusively used with this team. Golden Team +soccer returns 12,000 results, but again the majority of the references do not seem to apply to this team. I respectfully suggest that Golden Team, whilst commonly used to refer to this team in Hungary, is not exclusively used for this team outside of Hungary - but that Magical Magyars is. Coopuk (talk) 16:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Coopuk. Magical Magyars is better than Golden Team (Iaaasi (talk) 08:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC))

I understand that there are different methods for searching on Google Books and I know that Golden Team results in more than 400000 hits, so adding "Hungary" makes it easier to sort it out. That doesn't mean that Magical Magyars with its around 15000 hits would give more or better results. (Not to mention "Mighty Magyars" or the other derivations.)
The votes above are definitely leaning towards the more widely used term, Golden Team.
What I was trying to say is this: if we change the longstanding title, I think that Golden Team (Hungary) is more appropriate than Hungarian Golden Team. That's all. Squash Racket (talk) 09:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

If you support the move to Golden Team (Hungary), you are free to open a RFM discussion after the current one ends (Iaaasi (talk) 09:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC))

Intro

I prefer that intro:

The Golden Team (Hungarian: Aranycsapat; also known as the Magical Magyars, the Marvellous Magyars, the Magnificent Magyars, or the Mighty Magyars) refers to the Hungary national football team of the 1950s.

The other one looks strange with the different versions of this and that "Magyars". It's according to WP:BOLDTITLE too. Squash Racket (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Your intro includes all the versions as well, what exactly is different about your version in this regard? You include all the articles as well, which adds to the mess rather than cleaning it up.

What really looks strange is to have an article titled "Magical Magyars" and then "Golden Team" bolded in the lead, which is against WP:BOLDTITLE and also confusing for the reader. The title is what should be bolded in the lead, the alternative names listed afterwards. Wladthemlat (talk) 19:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, WP:BOLDTITLE refers to the subject of the article AND there's a concensus that the title of the article is Golden Team AND the lead also looks cleaner with the "Magyars" versions listed only afterwards. So just continue. Squash Racket (talk) 09:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• The subject of this artice is "Magical Magyars" not "Golden Team"
• No, there is no consensus on Golden Team, it's

• Magical Magyars: 5 (Moxy , Iaaasi, Coopuk, FkpCascais, Wladthemlat)
• Hungarian Golden Team: 4 ( Andrewa, Kauffner, Tim Pierce, CoolKoon)
• Golden Team: 4 (Fakirbakir, Hobartimus, Squash Racket, CoolKoon)

• Even if there were a consensus, until the article is moved, your lead is simply wrong.
• No, it doesn't help readability at all, but violates WP:BOLDTITLE Wladthemlat (talk) 11:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• The subject of the article is the Hungarian football team of the 1950s
• The page was moved from a longstanding title with little involvement from the community
• There is a concensus to move it back to (a version of) Golden Team (thanks for pointing that out)
• User:Iaaasi is a banned editor, I don't think his vote counts here any longer
• User:FkpCascais accepted Hungarian Golden Team either, you forgot to count him in there, so you are misleading those who might read that thread
• User:Coopuk also accepted Hungarian Golden Team, you forgot to count him in there, so you are misleading those who might read that thread
• If you pick the Magical Magyars version, there's no real reason not to list bold Mighty Magyars, Marvellous Magyars etc. which makes the lead look awful
• However, Golden Team + different versions of "Magyars" makes the intro look nice, clean and also is according to concensus
• even if you don't want to wait till an admin closes the WP:RM process (it's in the backlog now), it still does NOT violate WP:BOLDTITLE as you very well know

I don't waste my time here any more. Squash Racket (talk) 17:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• Did you even check what you were reverting from? Where do you see the rest of the names bolded in my revision?
• Even if there were a consensus, until the article is moved, your lead is simply wrong because it is confusing. Wladthemlat (talk) 09:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request (Disagreement over the lead and what is to be in boldface ):

WP:BOLDTITLE#Abbreviations_and_synonyms allows for boldfacing multiple names in the lead. For example, see the baseball article on Rawlings Gold Glove Award which is also known as a Gold Glove where multiple names are in boldface. However, it is up to consensus to decide the additional names, if any at all, by which the subject is also commonly known. Wikipedia is not a democracy based solely on voting. Decisions should be based on "reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense" per consensus.——Bagumba (talk) 22:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Based on the above statement, my feeling is to retain the existing "Magical Magyars" title for the article, but to make "Golden Team" the first of the multiple leads. I appreciate that there are extremely strong opinions about this which I suspect will never be satisfactorily resolved; however, "Magical Magyars" would appear to be the most commonly known identifier for this team outside of Hungary (ducks and places tin helmet to avoid bullets aimed at him) Coopuk (talk) 23:23, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

There's a clear concensus to move back the article to Golden Team (or Golden Team (Hungary), see my note to the closing admin), so I don't really understand your feeling.

The third opinion wasn't started to overwrite the result of the WP:RM process, but to decide how the lead should look until an admin finally closes it. Squash Racket (talk) 09:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

No, there's not, you counted Coopuk as supporting Hungarian Golden Team, obviously, that is not true. Wladthemlat (talk) 11:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Partial quote:

(...)If we must have "Golden Team" in it, then "Hungarian Golden Team" works for me(...) Coopuk (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Another quote:

(...)Hungarian Golden Team clarifies which team we are talking about, as well as retaining the link to the previous Golden Team entry (...) Coopuk (talk) 10:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

He accepted it. If he changes his mind and supports another title exclusively, community concensus still leans towards Golden Team. Squash Racket (talk) 12:39, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of causing offense, I did retract my original preference in the light of other people's arguments:

"Some excellent points made here. Based on the comments made, my preference is now to retain the existing name. Coopuk (talk) 11:13, 22 March 2011 (UTC)"

I don't think we have a clear consensus - in fact, that is the one thing we *don't* have. Coopuk (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

See, one of the partial quotes is from 11 April, three weeks after you had retracted your original preference. Squash Racket (talk) 10:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of date and times of retracting, my preference would not be for Golden Team - still, if the general feeling is that it is the preferred title for the article, so be it. Coopuk (talk) 17:13, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

We have a clear consensus against the present temporary name and return to a variant of the original Golden Team title which was the title of the page for many years. Hobartimus (talk) 22:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

At this point I would agree with Golden Team (Hungarian football). I don't actually like "Golden Team" but after reviewing the Google search results, I am forced to conclude that it appears to be more common than "Magical Magyars". —Tim Pierce (talk) 03:50, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Then start a new WP:RM if you want to, the current one has just been finished. Regardless of the title "Golden Team" would have redirected to this page anyway. There's no other team that is widely referred to by that name (with high caps). Squash Racket (talk) 10:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Sellyme, 3 June 2011

This pages links to 1954 World Cup, a disambiguation page. This needs to be fixed to 1954 FIFA World Cup. Sellyme^Talk 08:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I have fixed a link, and added FIFA to the final links to bypass a redirect also. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The link to the "Miracle of Berne" at the top of the page is still incorrect, and should reference the 1954 FIFA World Cup Final. Coopuk (talk) 19:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move to Golden Team of Hungary (football)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC) text by banned user removed. Fraere (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support disambiguation. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 10:54, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support - per nom. FkpCascais (talk) 19:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
• Query - why is the (football) disambiguator needed? There are no other "Golden Team of Hungary" articles..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:57, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The admin who makes the move can eliminate that part if he considers it unncecessary Fraere (talk) 20:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is not that simple. It is editors here that should have consensus first on the exact title, and then an admin can move it. Chris, are you proposing Golden Team of Hungary as title? FkpCascais (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• There are currently no other "Golden Team of Hungary" articles, but... there is more than one golden team of hungary; Water polo, 1952 [21], 1973 [22], 1976.[23] --ClubOranje^T 09:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. I suggest Hungary's golden team, which is what UEFA calls it. Encyclopaedia Hungarica has an entry title of "Golden Team, The". In a work about Hungary, "Hungary" is understood. But this suggests that the "(football)" disambiguator is unnecessary. Kauffner (talk) 02:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
• There are thousands of actually or metaphorically golden this and that. This article's name needs to be more specific. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• A general article about the "golden team" nickname can be created at Golden team (note capitalization), or possibly at "Golden teams", without moving this article anywhere. So this article should be put at whatever the common name for this team is -- without fretting about other teams. Kauffner (talk) 08:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, I agree with User:Kauffner's reasoning.Fakirbakir (talk) 11:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Please do not decry my vote. This team was the first internationally recognized "Golden Team". I can understand that somebody does not like it, however this is historical fact.Fakirbakir (talk) 11:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

text by banned user removed. Fraere (talk) 12:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, I also agree with User:Kauffner's reasoning. Whilst we are at it some of the Golden Generation entries need trimming or removing.Dwanyewest (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

text by banned user removed. Fraere (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

If an article is about more than one team, the title should not be capitalized. Kauffner (talk) 00:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I've never come across the term "Golden Team" to describe this Hungarian side, it's always been "Magnificent Magyars". Is it possible that "Golden Team" shouldn't be in the title at all? Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Comment Agree with Ilikeeatingwaffles. This team is far better known in English as the Magical Magyars (I had never heard it described as the "Golden Team" in twenty years of being a football addict). Shouldn't this be the article title rather than a translation of the Hungarian name per WP:COMMONNAME? Number 57 10:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Argh. Not again. Either of the "Magyars" suggestions would be vastly better than the proposed disambiguated term because, as noted, they're far more commonly used to refer to the subject by English language sources than are "Golden Team" or variations thereof. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 12:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I get 224 post-1980 English-language Google Book hits for "Golden Team" (qualified for "football" and "Hungary" or "Hungarian"), 23 for "Magical Magyars", and 6 for "Magnificent Magyars". Kauffner (talk) 04:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

text by banned user removed. Fraere (talk) 08:30, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

• NOTE to admin: "User:Fraere" seems to be Romanian banned editor User:Iaaasi, who may not initiate any kind of process here, not to mention controversial moves like that one. Please also note this.

To the others: there were weeks of discussion on the name (see threads above), first discuss, and please only after thoroughly reading through everything on that talk page propose a new name. Squash Racket (talk) 17:07, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose proposed renaming due to the choice of title. My personal preference would be for a Magyars variation, but if we're leaning towards "Golden Team" on common name grounds, I'd only go along with it if anything other than those two words is in brackets. —WFC— 08:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support move - simple google search show that term "Golden Team" can be used for various things: [24]. Therefore, title should describe article subject more specifically. PANONIAN 16:42, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

NOTE to admin: User:Iaaasi is now using also a meatpuppet, who added a vote in his first edit, please close this thread, only legitimate users are allowed to initiate this process. Squash Racket (talk) 16:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iaaasi shows no currently open case, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iaaasi/Archive shows no prior case involving User:Fraere, and User talk:Fraere shows no evidence of anyone trying to communicate even to ask how come a "new user" who has only edited in relation to this RM has the nous to initiate a requested move. There are preferred places to accuse other users of wrongdoing, in preference to trying to boost opposition to a point of view --ClubOranje^T 07:48, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

We've been dealing with this banned editor for a while, so thanks for the lecture. He himself acknowledged it (through a since then blocked proxy IP), I just removed his comment, because he is banned, that means he's not allowed to litter the pages here.

However, you are quick to make accusations against me. The result was no concensus. Even those who would prefer a move couldn't agree on the best title. All I'm asking is first discuss, and — if you're a legitimate editor — propose a move only afterwards. It's pretty clear that most editors haven't read at least the earlier move proposals (threads above) and the arguments there and this "process" is just another mess. Squash Racket (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

What seems clear to me is that you're trying to derail a discussion which isn't going your way by wikilawyering over the motivations of the original nominator. I'd stop doing that if I were you. There's obviously some support for a move. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 10:06, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Squash Racket was willing to support the move if you check his previous comments, for instance, cited: "I think that Golden Team (Hungary) is more appropriate".Fakirbakir (talk) 10:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Oops. Nevertheless, closing this procedurally would not be productive. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 10:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

If you don't close this procedurally, it will encourage the banned user, who already returned several times despite the community ban. Squash Racket (talk) 16:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Support Important for disambiguation, hungarian football teams are not well known in the United States, the proposed title will be helpful.Millertime246 (talk) 17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support I changed my mind. As User:ClubOranje mentioned before we need to deal with more Hungarian golden teams. We need a disambiguation page about "Golden teams of Hungary" and this page would be Golden Team of Hungary (football),

There would be other pages like these:

• Golden Team of Hungary, 1952 (water polo),
• Golden Team of Hungary, 1973 (water polo),
• Golden Team of Hungary, 1976 (water polo).Fakirbakir (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Are these water polo teams frequently mentioned in English literature as the "Golden Team", like the subject of this article? Squash Racket (talk) 16:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose the procedure itself as it was initiated by a Romanian banned editor and closing this instead of removing the whole thread would only encourage him in this behavior. I'll start a new thread on the naming issue. Squash Racket (talk) 12:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I remove User:Iaaasi/User:Fraere's further comments as banned editors are not allowed to comment here. He himself confirmed the newset case of socking through this IP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/217.64.22.14 Squash Racket (talk) 12:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

For the record. Squash Racket (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose initiated by banned user and therefore null and void. I will comment if a member of the community starts a similar proposal say a few weeks from now, but banned users are not members of the community and thus have no right to start any proposals or even comment on this talk page. Hobartimus (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

On the naming issue

• I consider Golden Team the most appropriate name as it is the only team widely referred to in English literature by that name. The name "golden team" is used in English, but only sporadically. However, I don't know of any other notable "Golden Team" (capital letters) that is widely referred to in English by that name. The banned editor created a disambiguation page because of the barely notable Romanian Golden Team for which I haven't found a single Google Books result. I don't believe that's a good enough reason for the move. Fakirbakir referred to water polo teams of Hungary as golden teams, but which one of those are widely mentioned in English by these names?
• Magical Magyars, the Marvellous Magyars, the Magnificent Magyars, Magic Magyars or the Mighty Magyars are also used in English, but that applies to all of them, so I think highlighting one of those names wouldn't exactly make the lead cleaner. Moreover, the Magyars versions are less used than Golden Team based on Google Books results (search term "Golden Team" Hungary).
• The current lead reads like this:

  The Golden Team (Hungarian: Aranycsapat; also known as the Magical Magyars, the Marvellous Magyars, the Magnificent Magyars, or the Mighty Magyars) refers to the Hungary national football team of the 1950s.

I don't think that by picking any other name you could reach a similarly clean intro.

• However, if someone proves to me that "Golden Team" is widely, frequently used as a proper name in English for another team or other teams, I'm open to moving it to Golden Team (Hungary). Just show me a good enough reason. At this point it seems to me that even a link at the top of this article to a disambiguation page is barely worth it, not to mention (mis)leading the reader to a disambiguation page as the number one option.
• Community banned editor's comments will be removed, please stop. Squash Racket (talk) 13:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The difference in ghits between "puskas golden team" and "puskas magyars" is two orders of magnitude in favour of the latter. All of the "Magyars" names are also plainly unambiguous. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 18:19, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Please try to focus, neither "puskas golden team" nor "puskas magyars" are viable options.

The article needs one title, and the Magyars versions also compete with each other in popularity and as I pointed out above each one of them has less hits on Google Books than Golden Team (search term "Golden Team" Hungary).

Ambiguity would be a problem if I'd see several notable Golden Teams (with capital letters) listed on WP, but that's clearly not the case. Squash Racket (talk) 16:15, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request

User: Vegetable78: Hi there, i think it's quite controversial to write that Hidegkuti was managing succesfully in Poland. He was coach of first division Stal Rzeszow for 6 months and was relegated. It was only once when he was coach in our country. Regards, —Preceding undated comment added 10:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC).

decade names

When unlocked for editing, should change decade names so they don't have apostrophes in them per Basic_copyediting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMills65 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

No defeats between 1950 and 1956

Er, excuse me, under "Key people" it says "Between 1950 and 1956, the team suffered no defeats, recording 42 victories and 7 draws." On 4 July 1954 they lost the one match they shouldn't have: the Battle of Bern, i.e. the World Cup Final, which is mentioned in detail further down. I suggest someone with the power to do so correct that mistake. How it could have happened is completely beyond me, forgetting the most important match they ever played.93.212.76.118 (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC) Sorry, of course it was not the Battle of Bern that they lost, but the Miracle of Bern. But they lost one match between 1950 and 1956 all the same.93.212.76.251 (talk) 12:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 5

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, plausible primary topic. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

---

Golden Team → Hungarian Golden Team – As I see, there were in the past hot discussions on the naming issue, with many users involved and several title proposals. The article was retitled a couple of times during history. I will pick some previous arguments

• "The current title could apply to any "golden team" of any sport, of any era" (Coopuk)
• "The name "Golden Team" is just too ambiguous" (Tim Pierce)
• "Titles are expected to use names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously" (WP:TITLE)
• "simple google search show that term "Golden Team" can be used for various thing" (PANONIAN)

There were at least 4 contributors that agreed with "Hungarian Golden Team" (Andrewa, Coopuk, Tim Pierce, Kauffner). Also partly FkpCascais ("Hungarian Golden Team also sounds like a reasonable proposal"). Golden Team could be redirected to Golden Generation, an article about groups of players, whose achievements reach or are expected to reach a level of success beyond that which their team had previously achieved. France '98, Sweden '94 etc are called Golden Teams too ForzaTeplice (talk) 08:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• Not convinced Sources refer to this team as Golden Team. (There is a Romanian Golden Team, but it has almost zero sources, specially when compared to the Hungarian team. Compare: "golden team" hungarian OR hungary has lots of results, while "golden team" romanian OR romania only has zero relevant sources about the Romanian gymnastics team. Also, the team is not named "Gold Team", it's named "Romanian Golden Team")

Other references to "golden team" are just off-hand remarks in the middle of other topics or in random articles. For example, "the 1927 Yankees, gold team for a golden time", but the team name is Wonder Team[25]. Sweden'94 is sourced to one football website[26] and has zero relevant hits on google news[27] and in google books only has a 1949 bulletin about "the Swedish soccer team, the so called "golden team" which is not even the same team[28]; I have removed that name from Golden generation.

(Kauffner suggested creating a separate Golden team article for the general term, "t" versus "T").

Another indication that this is the primary topic: if you remove the Hungary-related results, "golden team" -hungarian -hungary you don't find valuable sources that can be used to build an article. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

By analyzing the Google Books information provided by you, it can be seen that out of the 1,500 sources, only 241 refer to this team, so in most cases these two words are used in another context.

Out of these 241 sources, many are Hungarian sources and many use "Hungarian golden team" "Hungarian golden team", Hungary's golden team legendary golden team of Hungary ForzaTeplice (talk) 10:21, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict, I changed my post a bit) "golden team" is a general expression that can refer to any outstanding team, so it's going to appear many times in other contexts. Look at "golden team" books that don't mention Hungary's team, they talk about golden teams, but I can't see references to any specific team that is called "Golden Team". And they all name different teams.

You can see non-Hungarian books giving the team's name as "Golden Team": "(...) after the Golden Team broke in 1956 (...)"[29], "(...) the footballers of the 'Golden Team' (...) "[30], "The Aranycsapat (Golden Team) was (...) the Aranycspat (...) the Golden Team (Aranycsapat) (...) Hungary's Golden Team of the 1950s (...)"[31]. They are not saying that it was a golden team, they say that it was the "Golden Team", as a proper name that identifies the team. I don't see any book source that gives this sort of treatment to other teams. And see how many use quotes around the name "Golden team", to distinguish it as a proper name.

As for Hungarian books, it's not just popular culture books or nationalistic books, I found for example a book from Central European University Press "the legendary Hungarian soccer team of the early 1950s, the so called "Golden Team"[32]

P.S.: Show sources giving the name "Golden Team" to other teams. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Golden Team is the English version of the Hungarian name Aranycsapat (a direct translation) and it is natural for Hungarians to use uppercase A, because it is self-implied that they refer to their own team (like humans use Moon to name the moon of Earth). Frequently, in english there is used golden team, with lowercase g and lowercase t: [33][34][35]. I don't think Germans use phrases like "our team faced the Golden Team in the WC final". They rather say "our team faced the Hungarian Golden Team in the WC final" or "our team faced the Golden Team of Hungary in the WC final". ForzaTeplice (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

You might think so, but wikipedia is not based in our personal opinion. It's based on reliable sources. I already provided non-Hungarian reliable sources that use "Golden Team". --Enric Naval (talk) 08:04, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

It is a little strange to talk about reliable and unreliable sources regarding nicknames of football teams. What makes a source reliable? Are there specialists in football? For history, we have historians. We can't say that about football, so I don't understand why we use Google Books search instead of Google search. Popular culture is represented especially by mass-media and sport sites. ForzaTeplice (talk) 09:38, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-page moves. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 15:34, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

edit request

Please add {{other uses}} at the top of the article. This will create a hatnote pointing to Golden Team (disambiguation). --Enric Naval (talk) 11:51, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Restore last good revision?

Recommend restore to revision 11:21, 17 May 2012‎? Last good version before protection removed. Coopuk (talk)

You should not remove entire paragraphs, sections without discussion. Fakirbakir (talk) 22:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

This article is such a mess of unsourced speculation and peacock phrasing, it's hard to see how removing entire paragraphs or sections would hurt it. —Tim Pierce (talk) 04:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Can I point out that I have restored the article to its last "good" revision before the multiple edits by user Mokalatte (who is currently blocked). If you compare his last revisions (22:13, 4 September 2012‎ Mokkalatte) to the revision last made by user GrandMariner ( 03:15, 19 February 2011‎ GrandMariner) you will notice a startling similarity between the revisions. I conclude that user GrandMariner and Mokkalatte are in fact the same. Furthermore I humbly suggest that the revisions made by Mokkalatte were not an improvement on the original article. I invite editoral review of my reversion, and am happy to abide by the decision of Wikipedia editors. Coopuk (talk)

We now have user George1485 "adding content" which is startling in its similarity to edits made by users GrandMariner/Mokkalatte. Sock? Coopuk (talk) 21:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Remove header indicating multiple issues with article?

Would it be possible to remove the header stating that the article has multiple issues? That was introduced after vandalism by a sock user, and the article has since been restored to a "good" revision. Coopuk (talk) 12:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Study: Germany 1954 World Cup winners 'were doped' by brutal ww2 war doping

This doping drug was developed for german assault squads in ww2

According to German olympic committee:

http://www.footballfairplay.com/2010/10/germany%C2%B4s-1954-world-cup-winners-%C2%B4were-doped%C2%B4.html http://www.cbssports.com/soccer/story/14192143/study-german-1954-world-cup-winners-were-doped http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/worldcup/story/Study-1954-World-Cup-champions-Germany-were-doped

http://www.newstime.co.za/Sport/Study_claims_Germany%E2%80%99%E2%80%99s_1954_cup_winners_doped/13704/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.131.93 (talk) 08:44, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Turkey 3-1 Hungary

on 19.02.1956 Böri (talk) 08:19, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

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"Cynical" Fouls = Editorial/Agenda Term

Lots of descriptions of "cynical" fouls in this article. That's not a technical term I recognize but it sounds more like the writer has an agenda. User @Daxion seems to think using "cynical" is quite OK since he undid my deletion of that term. What do others think? If this is supposed to be an objective (as much as possible) article, then let's delete these agenda terms and editorial terms like "cynical". 63.225.185.183 (talk) 05:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Well... I stand corrected, seems like "cynical foul" is a BE term after all. The cynical foul comment for the Semi-final is sourced, so that's fine. The cynical foul comment for the pre-rounds is not sourced, thus personal opinion of the writer. Find a credible source. Taking it back out for now. 63.225.185.183 (talk) 05:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Btw: 1954 FIFA World Cup does mention the foul in question but without the attribute "cynical". So, let's take out this editorial term. 63.225.185.183 (talk) 05:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is a match report. The word cynical is not used the next few paragraphs.

Also here is the link to the article - https://www.theringer.com/soccer/2018/7/13/17568582/world-cup-most-important-game-1954-final-hungary-west-germany

Quote

"West Germany’s first opponents were Turkey, whom they beat 4–1, while Hungary broke the tournament’s single-game goals record in demolishing South Korea 9–0. Three days later, the two winners met, with Herberger making seven changes to his XI. Unsurprisingly, West Germany soon trailed 3–1, with Werner Liebrich amusing himself by landing several boots on Puskás, who collared the Hungarian-speaking Jupp Posipal at halftime. “Tell that clumsy oaf to stop,” he chuntered, vowing to devote the remainder of the game to his humiliation should he not.

Puskás, though, was on one. “I could feel the ball as a violinist feels his instrument,” he later wrote. “I played like a bird on the wing.” A bird on the wing with a lot of chirp, and following 10 minutes of goading, Liebrich packed him off down the tunnel with a hairline fracture of the left ankle.

In the immediate term, it made no difference, as a final score of 8–3 fairly reflected the balance of play. “It was quite obvious that only one team could win the world championship,” said Horst Eckel, the West German wing half, “and that was Hungary.”

Back home, the result was ill received. “It seemed the time had come to hang the treacherous coach Herberger from an apple tree,” reasoned Der Spiegel with invigorating specificity. Quite what he was up to was unclear even to his players: Fritz Walter thought his intention was to finagle a draw, while Eckel told The Ringer that he perceived a more general strategy, surmising that “Herberger’s plan was simple: to ensure that we progress further.”

This made sense. West Germany were likely to lose no matter who played, and now, their key players were fresh to playoff against Turkey to decide who qualified from the group in second place. Moreover, to become champions, they would probably have to play Hungary again in the final, so it made sense not to waste the rarity of a victory on the group stages. And, in the meantime, Herberger gave Liebrich and Rahn a game — they had not yet featured — while various understudies tired out a Hungarian side about which he could learn without affording Sebes the same opportunity."

End Quote Daxion (talk) 21:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Several sources question the unbeaten record between 1950 and 1956

The article states that "Between 1950 and 1956, the team played 69 games, recorded 58 victories, 10 draws and is generally considered to have suffered only one defeat, in the 1954 World Cup final against West Germany." but several sources pointed out that they lost a friendly against the Soviet Union in 1952.

References